david byrne. >> i thought i can do this. i can communicate this way. but i also felt at that point and i think probably a lot of artists and musicians feel this, we want to over throw whatever the reigning order of music is at that time, not violently just what is successful now, most of it doesn't mean anything to us. we have to make our own music, we have to make music for our generation, for our friends. >> rose: right. >> and it is not -- we are going to wipe the slate clean. >> rose: gustavo dudamel and david byrne when we continue. funding for charlie rose was provided by the following.

captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose.

>> rose: maestro gustavo dudamel is here, berlin philharmonic once called him the most astonishingly talented conductor industry ever come across. he is beloved bolivar orchestra in vendz well, ven venezuela anw is with the la philharmonic. ♪

>> rose: he is in new york to, bolivar orchestra in carnegie called, voices from latin america, also dedicated further musical education and social justice around the world, i am pleased to have gustavo dudamel at this table for the first time. >> thank you. it is an honor. >> rose: my pleasure. >> huge honor. >> rose: we have been wanting to do this for a while. tell me about the music you have selected for the performance. >> yes. this is a festival called dos americas here in new york, and we decide to bring, you know, this amazing music that we have, this very latin, in a ways of irs stick but deep music by es at the vek, villalobos, by ar

bon, carlos chavez, so for us it is very important to show the soul of our music also, also to play the strauss ballad, but especially, you know, our music. >> rose: tell me about the music of venezuela. >> well, look, what we are bringing is the -- i think it is the most important piece right in venezuela, by michael estevez and a piece for a big choir, two soloist, a tenor and a baritone. >> a huge orchestra, you can feel what is about our culture, you know the horrors, the importance of -- the importance of the land, of the place, of the -- all of the -- the big readers that connect not only venezuela but connect venezuela

with columbia, with brazil, it is amazing of. >> rose: you feel some sense of responsibility because of the position you hold now around the world. >> uh-huh. >> rose: to introduce the world to latin-american music. >> absolutely, of course. but look. for us the most important thing is to put our music in the same level of, how to say, of importance, of as, especially talking about modern composers because when we talk about our music, we are talking about music of the 20th century, and especially 20th century, villalobos, estevez,jarbon and that is important. i was thinking this, this is all new music for many people. >> rose: yes, exactly. >> it is old music. the

concerts are sold out. you know, it is something very special, because people are coming, you know, with this kind of question, you know, with this kind of, what will we listen? but i think at the same time they think that it would be something very special, for us the most important thing is not -- of course it is the orchestra from where i am coming but the music, how important is this music, to bring this music for people that are not close to that. >> rose: how -- how was it founded. >> it was founded by maestros, in 1975, i think, started as a program for young musicians. we have a great orchestra in venezuela, the orchestra similar gone a devenezuela. >> symphony devenezuela but it

is only one orchestra and not possible for the young students to be alive through music. it was only to study music and to see the possibility, the possibilities to have a job, by a miracle, really by a miracle, and what he did was to create this youth orchestra, and it was a dream, because it was crazy for many people, it was a crazy guy bringing young people, venezuelan to play classical music and he started with 11 and he thought, oh, my god, what is this about, only 11 musicians? at the end, he had 70. and when they played the first concert they have only 20 musicians but now after almost 40 years, we are talking about 400,000 young children, people. >> rose: do you take special

joy in either conducting or playing and introducing music to young people? >> i think for me it is the most important thing. >> rose: to make sure they -- >> you know, because this is my background. i grew up -- i was five years old when i started, but i always say that i started before, because my father started in the sistema in the seventies, and music was around my life all the time, it was like -- i think -- i don't know how to say, but what i remember, to remember when you are two or three years old, it is very difficult, but what i remember the most is music, in my father's study or studying, and then i wanted to be a musician, and studying with, you know, children of my

same age, doing music, playing, it is my life, and that is why for me so important to give the message of the power of music for young and for children. >> rose: but do you feel like you chose music or music chose you? >> i was in love with music, i really -- i didn't understood anything, really, but i loved it, to listen, and i love it to read when i was three or four years old, i remember a little book of my father's, soul fish of sailfish. small book. it was amazing. i remember. >> rose: yes. >> the smell of the book and i opened it and i was reading this black-white things there and my father saw that, wow, we have to do something with this, not only with this smell of the book but also with --

>> rose: and how long after that did you say, what i really want to do is conduct? >> well, this part of my life is really funny, because i wanted to play the trombone, and -- but the trombone was too big for me, and my arm was too short, we didn't have a small trombone, now you get the chance to have one and you can play. >> rose: on such matter music changes. >> yes. >> rose: your size did not lend itself to the trombone. >> no. and i was studying theory, you know, harm know, counter point, soul fish, aesthetic music, all of that, even composition, until i was nine years old, eight, and no, no, no, because i started to play the violin when i was nine, but i went to my first concert when i was seven years old. >> rose: yes. >> and my father was playing, i

remember, by korsakov. >> and for me it was like, wow, what is this guy doing there, you know, moving his hands and everything? >> rose: in command too. >> exactly. >> rose: sitting there and all of these musicians. >> exactly. following, giving. i asked my grandmother for a gift for my birthday that was a baton. >> rose: a baton? >> yes. and she bought for me, and my favorite game was to conduct the recordings. i remember an lp of chicago symphony conducted by daniel -- lp beautiful with tchaikovsky music, slave march, it it will, italiano, 1812, all of that and i was rehearsing and stopping the recording to say this is loud, this needs to go down,

again. i destroyed the lp, i remember, but i was giving my concert with my little toys there in front. and that was the beginning. and it was a very serious game. i remember -- >> rose: you took it seriously? >> you cannot imagine how serious it was. there was silence in my house. my house was, i know, 45 square meters. i don't know my grandparents, my parents, but it was beautiful atmosphere, and i was saying to them, you have zero to sit now and you have to listen to my concert. oh, yo you have to stop becausei am rehearsing now and that was my life, i was dreaming, you know, after school to go back to home and to get my toys and to do my rehearsal until i was 11 years old and the conductor

of the orchestra where i was playing, he was late, this was -- >> ah. >> and he was late, and, well,. >> rose: there you were. >> exactly. imitating, because we started that rehearsal, i was imitating, famous conductor, and local conductors, and he is like this, and then we started to work and i became, you know, assistant conductor immediately of this orchestra. >> rose: this is from a wonderful piece bob simon did for 60 minutes showing you conducting a youth orchestra in la. >> uh-huh. >> rose: during a practice. here it is. >> on saturdays all the kids get together in an orchestra. today we were there, so was gustavo, who has been conducting youth orchestras back in venezuela since he was 13 and has his own way to get musicians to understand the music. >> what do you want to play

first? >> ah, okay. one, and -- no, no, no, tempo, together. la, la, la. la, la, la. it is like a man talking to a girl, you know. la, la, la re fa. >> do re mi. >> maybe. okay. none of these kids knew anything about classical music before they came here. but gustavo knows that the program does a lot more than teach music, it builds character, discipline and teamwork. and he keeps kids off the streets. >> it is how we started, i remember this overture, would play, you know, i play as a

child, and it is amazing, because to see the transformation of these children, not because of the rehearsal, it is because the power of music, how it can change the life, and what you cannot see there is the parents, the families, around sitting and they were, you know, first approval all the time, yes, yes. no. yes. i would like -- my god. there is something magical that is happening, and it is the music that is there. the results of what is all of this idea about, when you are conducting, what does your mind's eye see? >> sometimes i am thinking of many things when i am conducting, and it is a very special kind of concentration.

i don't know. in general, i conduct by memory. >> rose: you do? why do you do it that way? >> well, i don't think that it is a special talent. i think, you know, conductors conduct really well, the best way with the music in front and some of the conductor i am not the only one that conducts by memory, but i feel more connected to the music and i feel more -- not just connected to the music but connected to the musicians, and i don't know. sometimes it is crazy when i -- when i finish a concert, and i think, well, i was thinking on this. sometimes i am thinking on other pieces but it is not an ability. it is something simple. it is the brain that -- >> rose: does it just happen or are you thinking as the score

is in your head? >> uh-huh. >> rose: this happens and then this happens and this happens? and this note and this note and then i bring in this section? >> yes. >> rose: are you thinking all of those things or does it simply once you begin it is almost just flows out of you? >> it is a structure of what you think. of course you are so concentrate, but the problem is not -- it is not like you read a book and you know every word of the book, it is not the way. it has to be very natural. and yesterday, you know, i was talking to a young conductor and he was asking me -- >> rose: a conductor younger than you? >> yes, a very young one, very talented, 16 years old conductor from venezuela, and he was asking me, i am having problems with this because i cannot memorize. and i said, if you have a

problem, then stop and see the thing as a big structure because you cannot memorize a piece. you know, in pressure, like i have to, i have to, because this would be a problem. >> rose: right. >> you will never memorize the piece. so rest, sometimes you don't have to conduct the first time without the score, but with time you are conducting with the music. you needless and less and less the score, and then you conduct by memory. and then it is like the brain is a muscle. >> rose: you are going to announce today a foundation. >> yes. >> rose: what is the foundation? >> it is to keep, you know, giving the message of music. >> rose: the power and the message of music? >> to help develop more the message, and this programs of sistema happens in los angeles,

in scotland, in sweden, in korea, in italy, in germany, not only los angeles in the states but it is happening in a lot of programs inspired by sistema, it is only to help that, you know, to develop the idea of music as a human right. >> rose: yes. >> it is a -- well, like this guy is talking about something really crazy. but i think art has to be an element of society, to be better citizens, to be a better human beings, we are not talking about something new. wwe can go back, you know, in times, you know, when art was an element, an essential element of the men. and that is something that we

need in this -- >> rose: it speaks to who we are and what we want to become. >> exactly. especially in in very cultivated world where -- >> rose: yeah. >> where we have to build something better, something more sensible for -- >> rose: when you accepted the job at the la philharmonic, why there? >> one of my first commitments was at los angeles, after i won the competition,. i remember invited me. >> rose: the then conductor. >> exactly. the music director at that time. and in 2005 i went there and the second time was in 2006 i was conducting bartok orchestra, dances, and fema was playing

concerto and i remember a group of the orchestra came to me, it was so beautiful, because i was 25 years old, and they came and they said, wow, we love to work with you, we love for you to come more often to the orchestra, and i was in a way, i think they were telling me, cane, we are thinking -- >> rose: it would be a wonderful marriage between you and us? >> and it was not decision the, it was not difficult, the decision. i think los angeles is a very special place to do things, important things, in many ways, community, the community is something very important, look what is happening. i started to be the music director of the orchestra, and the first thing was the youth orchestra, so amazing that for our orchestra, hike los angeles philharmonic, a legendary orchestra conducted by giulani.

>> getting the opportunity and thinking of the children, and the future of the community, building an orchestra, inspired by sistema which is something hike, oh, thank you, wonderful, you know, that is to be a advice nation about what to do with what we do. bring in a new audience. it is very important that we build the future audience, not only to do, you know, the normal problem like -- no, we have a problem that snot created from me, but from years ago which is the green umbrella, for example that is about new music, you cannot imagine how these concerts of complete new music are sold out, so we are talking about a community that is

hungry, you know, to have more and more. and i feel that in los angeles, from the first time, even my first concert was at the hollywood bowl, and there were, i don't know, 10,000 people listening to the concert, it was not full, because it was for 18,000, but to see an audience of 10,000 people listening to a concert is a, classical music concert, that is something. so that is -- >> rose: you heard simon said in my introduction to you. >> well that is not true. (laughter.) >> rose: but let's assume it is. what is it that you have, you think? i mean, what distinguishes here from here? i mean, help me understand your own sort of understanding, i am not asking you to pat yourself on the back. i am asking you to help us understand what it is that you have found within yourself to give. >> i don't know.

i don't know. i think -- i think, you know, it is the love of what i do, you know, and that is not a secret. you know, music for me is my life, and when i am not, you know, doing what i am doing i don't feel happy. >> rose: yes. >> , you know,? and that means something, you know, that means that music is a very important element of my life, and a natural element. i think we are a new generation. and talking about young conductors, i am not the only young conductor in the world, there are many tall lened conductors, you know, doing a great career right now, and i

see more, a big responsibility for us. really, charlie, i don't feel as a special person. >> rose: right. >> honestly. i feel really -- that i am a musician, and i am a part of the okay virginia i never feel like i am the leader and i am conducting to you and you have to follow me, no. i feel that i am one more musician of the orchestra, and maybe that is something special that people feel, you know, that, you know, is not an element distracting the music and what the orchestra is doing. it is only .. an element. >> rose: and when we watch you with the baton, are we seeing what the music is doing to you at that moment? i mean, are you simply taking it? and, taking it in and that's where the direction comes from the score? >> yes. absolutely. it is the music.

it is the music. it is the music. i study a lot, really, and i study scores, you know, i love to go deeply in music. >> rose: when you study the score, what are you looking for what is it that speaks to you? >> what speaks to me? >> rose: is it knowing where the composer's head was, where he or she was thinking at the moment, getting to what might have been. >> yes. >> -- at the moment that that note was taken from this head and this heart and put there on that page? >> just think from that point, but at the end, remember that you are recreating. >> rose: yes. >> you are recreating. so sometimes let's put the stamp of the tobin, the tobin is a composer very difficult to

approach, because it rules in the music. you have to use a small orchestra. you have a very special kind of sound to approach. but at the end, it is very subjective, because i am sure tobin at his time, he had an orchestra of under 50 knew sixes, musicians for him, you know .. i can imagine, by mozart saying to his father, father, i am so happy, because i have an orchestra of 40 violins. i have eight flutes. i have 14 double basses, and when you play it, when you approach mozart you approach mozart with a small orchestra. >> rose: yes. >> you know how subjective is that, you know, how he was happy, and how sometimes you try

to be, oh, my god, no, i cannot go like that because this will not -- the element of the sound that we have to build, but that is an amazing thing of music, the subjective point of music, how different it can b and in the moment that the composer put the notes there, it is still tobin, it is still mozart, but with the time, you are recreating that and it is still mozart but it is your idea, and the idea of the elements that you have in front, the okay strarks because also that is another thing, orchestras react differently, every orchestra and every orchestra has a different personality with the sound, with the commitment, with everything, so that is the world of the conductor, ho how to deal with that, because i cannot go to an

orchestra and conduct in the same way that i do with the bolivar orchestra, it is impossible what i do with the los angeles philharmonic and go to vienna philharmonic you have to deal with the tradition, to respect what they have, and to bring your ideas and to have -- like it is a 50-50. >> rose: yes. >> but it means music can be defined by different conductors and different orchestras and that is part of the genius of it all, you can hear it in a different way, and at the same time what that composer has cone has to be so extraordinary that it lends itself to that, and maintains its original creative impulse. >> and even the most amazing thing that you can play two times the same composer, the same composer, the same orchestra, the same conductor, yoyou play it and then you playt is a second time and it is different. it is a little different.

>> rose: even the next time night, programs. >> even the next night, even the same night, the same thing, same symphony, two times, it is as if it is the ability and, again, the power of the music to play with that, it is all subjective, because it is music, it is there, you have -- you have the paper there, the music, but how it can be, you have a million ways. >> rose: what is it that you want to be and accomplish over the next five years, say? >> it is to grow deeply and deeply in what we do. >> rose: beethoven you see five years ago may be different than the beethoven you see today? >> you cannot imagine how different i it can be, but wheni study and i see what i was doing, because i admire the score, i think, my god, how i was thinking that five years

ago, i can be impressed sometimes, you know, for the reaction of what the music was giving to me at that time. but then when i have this cord here and i say, well, i didn't see this, maybe i will bring this, i think, oh, this is really difficult, it is going deeply and deeply and deeply, the development of the way to think about music, and of course, you know, sometimes people expect for you to be -- to have the knowledge and the experience possess a 50 or 60-year-old conductor, you know, sometimes people compare you with berson. >> it is impossible to compare, because they are masters, you know, and i am sure when they were young they were doing -- they were searching, they were, you know, thinking the way that

they developed at the end, and it is fascinating, because what i see in five years in my life, i see my life conducting, and trying to understand what i am doing now, and what i will do at that time more deeply. >> rose: daniel birnbaum was a mentor, samuel was a mentor, they give you what? >> >> well, they are all different, you know, of course, my main mentor is sebraio, he is my maestro, my teacher, and i learn everything, the structure, the basis of what i am now, you know, what i do with music, he has an amazing brain. >> rose: yes, he does.

>> incredible way to think, because never, never you do something and never is not a question there. >> rose: yes. >> why did you do that? gustavo-ito. >> rose: why did you do that? >> why did you do that? >> well, maestro -- no that is not the answer, the answer is this, because of this element. his brain structure, everything, and that is why he do what he does, you know. he can conduct an opera, and then he can play a concert, piano concerto and do a conference. he is a special brain. simon ratel, he is a fire. >> rose: a fire? >> fire. amazing. and i am not saying that simon is -- but the soul of simon and the power in his energy.

another one that has been very important for me claudio bardo. >> rose: oh, really. >> and he is a magician. his hands and his way to conduct, the simplicity and at the same time the beauty of his hands. so really, i am really thankful to life, you know,. >> rose: the cover of musical america worldwide, gustavo dudamel, musician of the year and this is a cd, remember those? gustavo dudamel, discoveries. continued success, you are a gift for all of us and i thank you. >> it is a big honor, thank you very much. a huge honor. thank you. >> rose: david birp is here, a musician, author and artist, a

successful career with the talking heads and then as a solo artist. he appeared on the cover of time magazine in 1986, which called him rock's renaissance man, and then there was the concert film, stop making sense. here is a look at some recent work. ♪

>> rose: how music works is his latest book, he takes on everything from the disruptive effect of technology to the acoustics of punching music venues, i am pleased to have him back on this program. welcome. >> good to be back here. >> rose: so tell me what this is. >> i mean it is part memoir. >> a bit of memoir stuff, not a lot but a little bit, it is mainly about music, how the context of music finds itself in, affects what the music turns out to be. >> rose: what do you mean by context? >> there is a lot of them. >> right. >> okay. and i didn't set out to write that, i started writing some essays and things and i realized, wow, this is what it is about that it could be the stage, performing on a stage, the fact that you have to do something live performing in front of other people and it could be the acoustics of the

live venue, whether it is reverb brandt space like a cathedral r a little club in nashville .. it could be the finances of trying to be a musician, trying to be a composer and make a little of it and that narrows down and defines what you can reasonably do. you can have the same ambitions but they are going t going to k- they are going to get narrowed down at some point and you may keep those ambitions and achieve them some day, but there is going to be other factors that guide you, there is how you learned, how you learned music. >> rose: let me start with this idea you talk about the creative myth. right? >> uh-huh. >> rose: tell me about that. >> well, there is a very popular and very attractive idea that has been around for a very long

time that composers, musicians artists in general that we have something very emotional. >> rose: right. >> that we have to get off our chests and that's where creativity comes from, that it is something that we just pours out and whatever, jack carowak's scroll just starts typing. >> rose: you are here to telling tell us that is a myth. >> yes. i am here to say it is not entirely a myth but there are so many other factors that affect what comes out in the end, whether it is financial or where the venue it is going to be presented in, what form it is going to take who your audience is, all these other things, you internalize them and that shapes what you make, it may not shape the emotion of what you make but it shapes a form of it, how long it is, what it sounds like. when you. >> rose: when you look at creating music, what is hard and

easy about it for you? >> i have been doing it for a while so in a way i feel like i know how to do it and in a way that is a hindrance, there is a temptation to fall back on what you know. >> words are, for me the hardest part, the words are the hardest part. >> rose: the music -- >> because they pin it down, the music itself, just the melodies and the rhythms and all of the other stuff, they have this lovely ambiguity, that allows me and the audience and listener to find a way in, because it is not too specific but as soon as you start putting words in there, you are starting to chip away at that ambiguity and make it very specific, which if you do it well, it works great, but if you

don't, you kind of kept people out. >> rose: when you created talking heads, what did you have in mind? >> i think there were a couple of things going on, one, i personally, i was very, very, very shy person and, it was getting up on stage, i had done it before like a folk singer or whatever and i realized i can communicate this way, i can do this. >> rose: you had a gift? >> i thought, yeah, doing this, i can communicate this way, but i also felt at that point and i think probably a lot of artists musicians feel this, we wanted to over throw whatever the reigning order of music was at that time. not violently we just thought, what is successful now most of it doesn't mean anything to us, we have to make our own music, we have to make music for our generation and our friends. >> rose: right. >> and it is not going -- we are going to wipe the slate clean

and start from scratch. >> you were reacting against what? >> it was rock dinosaurs, a lot of them, in retrospect i actually like their music, but acts that were playing the madison square garden and on tv or who were doing huge expensive tours and all of this kind of thing. >> rose: this was what year. >> this was the mid seventies, mid seventies, 74, 75, 76, right around there. >> rose: and you wanted to create something that was different. >> >> but at the time there was a bit of anger in there, there is a bit of anger saying, you know, these people are not speaking to us, they are not speaking to our world, to our realities, to the lives as we live our lives. they are living in some fantasy land. >> rose: at least these are words that come to mind about your music, minimalist. does that fit for you? >> it is not really anymore, but

yes, yes, definitely. >> rose: at the time it was created. >> very much. >> rose: intellectual? >> probably, yeah. >> rose: what else? >> wow. let me address those things. minimal, yes as i said we kind of stripped everything down to let's have the bare, the barest part of instruments play parts that are stripped down as much as possible, just the essence of what a song can be and no more. and then gradually we can accept the things in and add stuff to it. mix things in and add stuff to it. intellectual, that, i think, was not meant as a compliment. >> rose: yeah. >> i think in the context of a rock band, that was meant as a criticism, so i kind of like bristle and feel, like, oh, that means -- that is something they don't like, actually. >> rose: yeah. >> but i also felt like a lot of

rock music was intentionally preventing to be more -- less intelligent than the composers actually were and i thought let's be honest, let's be honest and try to talk about who we really are. >> rose: who we are. >> yeah. >> rose: when did you move away from that? >> early mid eighties. >> gradually, the experience of living and growing and doing and wanting to create new? >> gradually added more musicians to the live band and more parts to the recordings and i realized that it wasn't just more. i mean, adding more people, more parts. it wasn't just making it bigger, it made it into a completely different thing. it made the music about

something else. as a result i had to write hercally about other things, it was no longer stripped down to where it was just like my angst and my personality. it had to be something about -- it was a community when it became more musicians. was it affected by the market? >> >> oh, yes, yes, yes. >> rose: that's in here. >> yes. >> at that time we were on an upper trajectory so we could afford to add these extra musicians later on and that lasted for quite a while. by maybe the mid nineties, a decade or so later, i had to strip it back down. >> rose: because the market changed? >> th the market changed and i would justify it by saying, which was probably one of the big incentives for me to do it, but i could justify it by saying it is time to make a musical change too, but -- so --

>> rose: time to change to change creativity and time to change because the market had changed? >> i think so. >> rose: was there a golden age for you? at that. >> rose: for. >> for me, no, but there probably was, depending on the generation, the age of the music fans, yes, the music you heard in music in high school and college, whatever that happened to be probably has a deeper effect on him. >> rose: what is interesting today in some of these bands i know and provided you will see a variety of age groups now, i mean, children come to hear the same thing some of the same things or artists that their parents did. >> i find that with my audience as well and i am going to say very flattering, it is very flattering, whatever a 13-year-old kid is logic listening to one of my records or something. >> because his parents

introduced -- >> sometimes, but sometimes they are out there on their own. >> sometimes they find it on their own and that is really flattering. >> rose: talk about the distribution. because i mean you have six models of distribution. >> there are probably more and i am talking about how music gets from the makers to the public, and there is probably more, there is probably a spectrum, and it goes from what is called 360-degree deal which basically means the artist signs for everything, for the t-shirts for the live concerts and the records and then goes to the other side where the artist is kind of doing everything for themselves, they are selling out of their own web site, they are booking their own concerts, they are driving to the gigs in a van and everything inbetween, so there is, there are more options there are more choices that than there used to be.

>> rose: because there is opportunities to find more distribution channels. >> yes. >> more options that way, you can decide i am ready to give up ownership of myself because i want the finances that will give me. >> rose: so i can focus on things and not the business side. >> and the opposite as well. it doesn't mean musicians or the music business is doing great but at the moment there are quite a few choices. >> rose: are you happy about the digital revolution as it affects music? >> the technology -- >> rose: take what you have? >> well, it is technology is great, but in recent days and recent weeks i have been thinking to myself, th to the internet isn't always good, all of this whole world that we live in now, i have to step back for a minute sometimes and go, without being a ludite and say

not everything this brings us is good. >> rose: what is not good? >> there is a sense -- well, everybody knows there is a sense when people just spend their time with the face in the gadgets. >> rose: right. >> there is a sense where relationships, whether it is what you consider friends or other relationships, they -- they are kind of whittled down to being like little sound bites and 125 words or whatever, and that is a relationship, that is not a relationship, that is not relating to another human being. >> rose: exactly right. do you think there will be a day in which concerts will be a relic, big concerts? >> no, i don't think so. >> rose: people will always want to go and listen to music with other people? >> yes, i think part of it is the music but a huge part of it is being together with other people, people who all like the same thing. >> rose: you wrote this, throughout the history of recorded music we valued

disreens over quality every time, convenience over quality every time. >> well, doesn't it sounds good? >> i think it is true. it is not entirely bad, i mean, when people who value kind of a beautifully recorded symphony or a band or whatever it is, it sounds terrible, but i realize as a teenager, when i first heard pop music and kind of shocked me and excited me it was over a little transit sorry radio that probably sounded worse than listening to music on your phone now,. >> rose: i would as assume much worse. >> and it changed my world. >> rose: and it doesn't have to be perfect. >> it doesn't have to be perfect and it is nice if it sounds better if you have that option but it doesn't have to be. >> rose: yes. and you can find something in there that. >> it is like television in a

sense it doesn't have to be perfectly produced, if it adds excellence it has something that is really something interesting going on. >> it just pulls you in. >> rose: yes, exactly. >> you can watch it on your phone. >> rose: and if it has a strength and eloquence at its core -- >> it doesn't really matter. >> it is a question, though in terms of television and i assume in terms of music would you rather go into a recording session or go to a concert to perform? what? >> recording to me is the hardest part because it kind of pins it down. i enjoy the composing, the writing, the figuring out parts with the other musicians and the performing, because most of -- both of those leave a little bit of possibility. with a recording it is fixed, it is fine, i like it but if i had to write those three things -- >> rose: who do you want to read this book? other than many

people? >> i am hoping that it goes beyond people -- >> rose: the hard-core who need it? >> and those people who know who i am. and hopefully people who don't know my music, don't care about my music, but they might, somebody might tell them that, hey this -- there is a way of looking at how music works that is in here, that deals with whatever music you like. >> rose: the, my theory is the more you understand about something the more interesting it becomes, the more complexity. >> yes and you are finding the argument that says if you take it apart you are going to ruin the experience. >> rose: yes. >> and the counter argument is well you can learn how to fix your car but that doesn't spoil the enjoyment of the ride. >> rose: who speaks to you this writing about music? >> well, i have. >> rose: and you have read i lot, i understand. >> i have read a lot of -- >> rose: you write es says?

>> yes. .. i met a woman who wrote the great animal orchestra about the sounds animals make in the environment, and he broke it down and said, look, in an environment that remains stable, insects take this frequency bandwidth and the mammals are kind of here, and the monkeys or whatever are here, the birds are in here. they have it worked out and as if it is lines of music and all playing their parts and they don't intrude on the others. >> rose: yes. >> and it was kind of a huge insight and i thought that is absolutely right. yeah. >> rose: tell me about the role of brian eno. >> he is -- he was instrumental in kind of pushing talking heads as a band. >> rose: right. >> beyond what we were used to doing. and then he and i worked together as collaborators, as collaborators before.

he is not entirely but to some extent he is a nonmusician, he actually can play an instrument but he prefers to think of himself as a nonmusician so he prefers to work and think of how the music is organized as opposed to sitting and jamming with somebody. >> you are now collaborating with annie clark. >> yes. >> rose: how is that going? >> it has been going really well it has been going really well. we did a record and we have been doing performances where we have a fairly large brass section and that became the core of the band, and that was a choice we made, that was a limit we made and then we put together these songs based on that and worked out great, it is a great sound. >> rose: do rock stars have a special place in the paragon of celebrity worship? >> there is the most in someone's career where it seems

like everything comes together, they have written some incredible songs and they are a great damageser and great on stage, whatever, everything seems to be happening and then, you know, as you see, well, they are fallible, a couple of years later they do something horrible. >> rose: right. >> and you go, yes but, okay, so like you take them off the pedestal but still respect the moment when they did this genius stuff, and you go, that really was genius and you can't deny that. >> rose: and they will always have that. >> yes, yes. >> rose: la times, the keen cultural observer from music to films to art to the internet to books, david byrne has become a public intellectual, do you like the sound of that? >> that is meant to be flattering. >> rose: yes, it is. >> times have changed. >> rose: you always want people when they write something like that, also i am an entertainer. that's also want i do. >> yes, yes, it is meant to be fun and entertaining as well.

>> rose: an and i want a lot of people the buy this book. not just to say it is intellectual or good, i want them to buy it. all of that. >> >> thank you. >> rose: thank you very much. funding for charlie rose has been provided by the coca-cola company, supporting this program since 2002. and american express. additional funding provided by these funders.

and by bloomberg. a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. captioning sponsored by rose communication

>> from the editors of cook's illustrated magazine, it's america's test kitchen with your host christopher kimball, featuring test kitchen chefs julia collin davison, bridget lancaster, becky hays, with adam ried in the equipment corner and jack bishop in the tasting lab. discover the secrets of america's foremost food testers and tasters, today on america's test kitchen. today on america's test kitchen, becky shows chris how to make a great vegetable lasagna. next, jack challenges chris to a